S7:E7 | Growing Pains

Grab a double shot for this one! An intriguing young lady, Gabrielle Budder, joins Black Family Table Talk to candidly share her story of being stripped of her Cherokee heritage, raised in a cult, and finding her way back to discover who she was really created to be. 

Sponsored by: The Ms. Pat Show. Season 2 now streaming only on BET+. To learn more, visit BET.plus  Stream Black culture.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Toni: Hey, Gabriel.

[00:00:02] Gabriel: Hi!

[00:00:03] Toni: How are you?

[00:00:04] Gabriel: I'm doing alright. I try to let my cats up, but they have figured out how to open doors. So I think that's just how it's gonna work today.

[00:00:15] Toni: Oh they want to get to the microphone?

[00:00:17] Gabriel: They might. They love hearing people talk.

[00:00:21] Toni: Oh, wow. Well, this is good. This the sound is good. Um, I, I can hear you fine. You can hear us fine. I hope mm-hmm . Yes. And, uh, I just wanna welcome you to black family table talk.

[00:00:37] Gabriel: Yes. Thank you.

[00:00:38] Tony: Welcome. Welcome. Welcome.

[00:00:40] Toni: We met under different circumstances and we normally don't find our guests with me, um, Perusing events, but, uh, we had an opportunity to sh to sit next to each other, and I believe that everything is, is of divide it it's it is just not, it is no, nothing is, is without circumstance or nothing is circumstances, but everything for a purpose. And, um, I met when you met and you started sharing your story.

[00:01:10] I said, oh, we gotta have you on people need to know your story. And you graciously agreed to jump on and you responded so graciously. So I want you to share with me your background, but I. want you to talk about your, from a heritage standpoint, from a cultural and heritage standpoint. So if you could put that in the backdrop of your head and share your story with us, I can't wait to hear it.

[00:01:40] Gabriel: Since you said the heritage, it's a little bit of a different take than the first time we talk, but I'm a Cherokee I'm my family are all up here in Oklahoma. We're part of the Cherokee nation. My dad is from a small town called Kenwood. It's close to Salina, which is how everybody describes it, because it's just like out in the middle of the trees where you can't really see anything.

[00:02:02] It used to have. It has one church and one store and the end that they had burned down so it's like, it's incredibly a small, small place, but it's all full of Cherokee nation citizens, and Katuan nation citizens, which is our sister tribe. This is where things get just a little bit difficult.

[00:02:20] My dad is a first language speaker in Kenwood Cherokee heritage was never really. Taken away there since it's so small, there was a lot of Cherokee speakers that would go back and forth. But during my dad's upbringing, he would go to Salina public school. And the only language that he knew then was Kenwood or Cherokee.

[00:02:43] Sorry, because of that, he was belittled a lot by the teachers. They tried to instill, you know, English. And so they had english only speaking classrooms. And because he couldn't speak English, he was often like, I forget what it's called. It might, I think it's a dance hat or something like that. He would have to wear those and he would have to be put in a corner.

[00:03:04] And so he had a lot of cousins that were speaking, both Cherokee and English, and they helped him get through a lot of his early classroom years. But because of that, like those experiences, he didn't want us to live the same life he did. And so he moved away from Kenwood and Salina. He went to Claremore, Oklahoma, which is close to Tulsa.

[00:03:27] And I was raised in primarily schools and at those types of things. And so I would see my cousins who were learning Cherokee and had a lot of Cherokee experiences. But for me, I, I was kind of just the token native. And so a lot of my experiences growing up, even though I felt like I didn't have the culture.

[00:03:45] I can't speak my language. I've been learning it now, but not nearly as much as what my cousins have. It was a big switch where anytime I would go to akin with, to visit my family, it felt like I just wasn't enough. But while I was backing Claremore, I was the only person that had any kind of knowledge at all.

[00:04:04] And so we have these things called JOM programs, which is sponsored by it's Johnson O it's to help Cherokee students regain their culture after our cultural genocide. But in some cases, because I knew more than the teachers that were teaching those programs, I was asked to teach students and Claremore itself, but it was just this really weird kind of dynamic of me feeling like I don't even know my culture.

[00:04:28] So how am I supposed to teach everyone else? This, a cultural standpoint, that's where my Cherokee heritage comes from. That's the kind of the experience I had with that. But as I told you, I was also in a cult and so a lot of that I have had to dissect because Cherokees are a natural lineal society. And the cult I was part of was very patriarchal.

[00:04:54] And so there was a lot of clash. The more I've had to think about where my family's path kind of went down. I think of it a lot as my dad was abused so much as a child, that he just turned to something that he could hide himself in. And so, I think, uh, from that you had asked something along the lines of how my standpoint with my family is now since I'm out of the cult and all those different types of things, but it's a lot of just trying to understand, like there is one cultural genocide that's happened to my family.

[00:05:28] There's a bunch of trauma that from both of my parents, they've been trying to like. To remedy it for us. They're trying to give me and my brothers a better life. And so even if it's not necessarily the lifestyle I wanted, it's still them trying to protect me. And so there's a lot of forgiveness in that.

[00:05:49] That's from the cultural standpoint.

[00:05:51] Tony: So at what age were you when you, your family was introduced to the cult? Cause obviously this came after you, you were born. And could you talk about that? What was the reason, how were you guys approached?

[00:06:05] Gabriel: Well, we were actually in this cult before I was born. Yeah, it was before I was born.

[00:06:12] Tony: So, so you were born in it?

[00:06:13] Gabriel: I was born in it.

[00:06:14] Tony: Okay.

[00:06:14] Gabriel: I left five years ago. And so, so the, from the, what my dad told me was, so this, there were missionaries that came to Kenwood. And so they were preaching about William brother branam and his teachings. My church was technically, we were always taught that we were non a domination church, but we also had sister churches, which were often called branamites.

[00:06:40] And they were still included in our activities and things. And I do wanna preface this, even though I was in a cult. It's not like the scary ones you see in Hollywood. I didn't have to run for my life. I wasn't being killed or nothing. There's no further nothing like that. Really. It was just really just worshiping a man instead of God.

[00:06:57] And so that's the baseline of what that goal is, but the way that they were introduced was they, the missionaries came to Kenwood. I said before that we have one church. And so before then really Kenwood is kind of cut off away from the world. We don't have good cell reception or internet connection out there.

[00:07:18] I always have to text everyone. If you guys needed to get a hold of me, don't. I'm gonna be gone for five hours visiting family. And so sometimes we'll get travelers in, but since the end was burned down, We, or they didn't have a whole lot of interactions with a lot of people outside of Salina. Something that my family would always say is really, it's difficult to get outta Kenwood.

[00:07:41] If you don't have a car, if you don't have the resources to do that. And so a lot of people that are in Kenwood kind of just get stuck there if they don't get scholarships or move out or anything along those lines. I know a little bit from my dad, he was actually kicked out of his house at 18 my grandma was like, yeah, go live for yourself now.

[00:08:01] So he hitch hiked with cousins to get down to Clare more. And he was just living with a cousin for a little bit, but it was always a, you had to ride with somebody out of there to really get out of Kenwood. And so revisiting the question. I've been a part of this cult, my entire life. My dad got into it whenever he was young too.

[00:08:21] It, he, because he would've because he was kicked out at 18. He would've had to be introduced to it at a really young age. So relatively in that time from 16 to 18 so it's been a long time.

[00:08:35] Toni: Couple questions. Um, you said that it wasn't a bad thing. The cult, wasn't a bad thing. A sort of like verse worshiping man versus worshiping God I'll have to. My, the, the first thought that came to mind was there's a whole lot of mini cults running around here, cuz there's a whole lot of churches that, where they worship, worship the pastor instead of God. But I digress.

[00:09:00] I think it's fascinating how your dad in search for healing found this or discovered this, or was vulnerable to cult recruitment as a place to, as a place to find himself and to feel comfortable as a community. Is that, where do you agree with that statement? First of all, that's what I think I'm hearing, uh, in your observation as a child, do you believe that's why, or one of the reasons why you felt as though your parents were susceptible to being a part of it?

[00:09:38] Gabriel: I definitely resonated whenever you said vulnerable through it, because a lot of, so even now, again, I don't really think of anyone that was part of the cult in a bad light, cuz they were very, really like an extra family really, because they're really kind, they just had a different lifestyle that I didn't wanna be a part of.

[00:10:01] And so whenever it comes to, again, My dad being abused as a child, not really being able to express his Cherokee culture. Really Kenwood is a very impoverished place as well. And so being stuck in this area where, you know, Cherokee culture, isn't gonna get you anywhere. It's actually holding you back.

[00:10:26] Everyone's incredibly poor. And so they can't get outta the situation and they're all stuck. He was, I could feel like he was really searching for a place to. Still have the community that he was leaving behind, but also being progressive thinking in letting his kids have a better lifestyle than he was yeah growing up.

[00:10:49] And so I can, yeah, it's definitely that vulnerability of just trying to find a place that'll accept him. Yeah.

[00:10:56] Tony: Guess it was pretty, I guess you guys had two ideologies you were trying to through, cause you mentioned. That you're part of the Cherokee nation and you're learning your heritage. And then you also mentioned that there's not much there in the Cherokee nation that you guys can progress in.

[00:11:17] And so I'm curious to note two things as you're learning about your Cherokee background, it's part of that background. Any, is there any connection to the spirituality of a Cherokee nation that you guys hold onto? And how is that different from the cult that your family was part of?

[00:11:36] Gabriel: Oh, I will say the, the Cherokee nation has a thriving, spiritual life, but is also a closed practice.

[00:11:46] And so it's, so I'm gonna be a little bit more careful on what I say on this part. I guess I'll go in a little bit on why it is a closed practice. Okay. I'm trying to get my dates, sorry. I'm really awful with dates and things.

[00:12:00] Toni: Take your time. Take your time.

[00:12:03] Gabriel: Uh, so the United States government essentially made it illegal to express Cherokee culture or native American culture in general.

[00:12:10] And so they, they made it so that it was illegal for the children to participate in ceremonial practices. And so this was essentially to kill off the Indian, you know, all those kind of policies. And so really only our elders were able to express the culture and whatever the student or whatever the kids see, that was all that was really able to be retained and passed down.

[00:12:40] But you know, people are people. And so there's like hidden spaces that we have been able to cultivate for ourselves, which we don't tell to strangers. We don't, you have to, we call them stomp grounds. You have to be invited to a stomp ground to be able to be a part of it. And so it's very close where really we're just trying to protect ourselves because even though that law was rescinded, It wasn't that long ago, it's a living memory where it was still illegal to have our culture.

[00:13:12] And so it's all, so Cherokee culture is very word of mouth, you know, story based. And so a lot of the times, whenever I tell my stories, I tell it like how. The old, the elders told it to me. And so from that, instead of just saying, you know, Cherokees 50 years ago, instead of having that terminology, I'll use a lot more of a we, because this is our lived histories.

[00:13:38] And so whenever an elder tells you, don't just openly give like this culture to another person, you really listen to it. And so a lot of it is passed down of you know, it was maybe like 60 or 70 years ago, whenever this was illegal and the government is really fickle and it changes from president to president.

[00:14:03] And so if another president decides actually we don't believe native Americans exist anymore, or like, we don't believe that your culture is valid or anything along those lines, if anything changes. All of those things that we had shared either online or just in general could then be targeted. And so that's why it's a very closed practice of that mindfulness, you know, it could change at any time.

[00:14:29] And so on that , uh, like we still have a really thriving, spiritual practice. We are, it's also this weird kind of thing, cuz one cultural genocide, right. I told you before how the children couldn't participate and so that history's been lost, but, and so we need to have spiritual leaders. That'll teach people, but it's also this guided of, we can't be careless with it.

[00:14:56] We have to make sure people are vetted. We have to make sure that people aren't just gonna constantly share things that we consider extremely spiritual and with a lot of cultural appropriation these days, you know, all these trends, we can't give something that is. inherently spiritual and then have it blow up and then people not understand where that's coming from.

[00:15:17] And so we really don't want that to be stolen from us either. And so from there, , uh, it is very different from how I was raised in a cult, because the thing is, I felt like I was in a stage. It just caught a dissonance for a really long time. Again, I am surrounded by really strong Cherokee woman who support their communities and are leaders in their communities.

[00:15:46] And then I had this cult where I wasn't really allowed to hold any leadership positions, a most of the sisters that I had in my church their goals were to get married around 20 and then have a bunch of kids. And so if I had followed down that path, I would've had probably two kids by now and a husband and so living in a very different kind of lifestyle.

[00:16:09] And so I don't know. It's interesting. It's just a lot of different ways of thinking at things but I also, I can't dive too deeply into the nuances because of how it's a closed practice.

[00:16:22] Toni: That's fine. And I appreciate you shedding light on something that normally we don't really talk about. And I think probably a part of that is because of the cultural, the preservation of your cultural, sacred sacredness and sanctity of it and not wanting it to be exploited.

[00:16:40] So I thought you, you did that very well and I respect your need to protect that. Let's move towards how old are you now? You're young. You're a young, beautiful thriving young woman.

[00:16:53] And I met you as such. How old are you?

[00:16:57] Gabriel: I am actually, I'm turning 23 on the 27th of this month. So pretty close to turning 23, but I'm a kid.

[00:17:06] Toni: Well, everybody in their twenties, they, they don't believe it, but they are still growing. But I see you as a light with a voice and I want you to share, and that's how I encountered you.

[00:17:18] It was just a warm spirit and I see it coming through right now. What do you think. Your story is gonna be, how do you think your, I know this is a deep question. How do you think you're gonna make contribution to the world? No, let's back up. How did you get out and why did you decide to leave? And then how do you think that this, all of this is gonna serve purpose for you moving forward?

[00:17:47] Gabriel: Okay. So I'm going to say what I tell everybody, but it's also mean, so give a little grace. Uh, okay.

[00:17:58] Toni: So tell it like at is.

[00:18:01] Gabriel: Okay. Okay. So we used to have balls in our church. That's where we supposed to find our man, right. Uh, we, they typically like you address, like in your culture or you would wear something that's like a good conversational starter?

[00:18:15] Toni: Like in Bridgeton, like-

[00:18:16] Gabriel: the, yeah.

[00:18:19] Toni: Is it Bridgerton or Bridgeton, the Netflix series. I think it's Bridgeton, but oh my gosh.

[00:18:24] Gabriel: Okay. Yeah, but I so, so again, I was invited to one of these, but I had overheard people talking about whether I would be able to work well with people because I, me and my brothers, so my family is still we're really poor.

[00:18:40] And so in our upbringing, We went to public school and everyone else in our church are like carpenter trade skills, men. And so they had a lot more money to work with. And so they were all in private institutions or homeschooled. And so me and my brothers had a very different interaction with everybody simply because we were around people that were part of this cold in everyday life all the time.

[00:19:07] And so, uh, a lot of the teachings made me start realizing, well, my friends aren't in this cult, but they're still kind and loving and they don't seem like the stereotypes you're putting on everybody else. And so that's really the beginning of just understanding maybe this isn't how things actually are.

[00:19:30] And then it kind of just kept building up until my older brother. He wanted to go to college. And in this cult education, we were always told that it was of the devil and the higher education, especially the profit that we followed had a sixth grade education, and they would always preach about having a childlike intelligence.

[00:19:52] And so higher education was not encouraged at. But again, my older brother was really good at school. He wanted to go to college. And so he went to OU, university of Oklahoma and yeah. And then that's whenever the church got really strongly preaching about how higher educations of the devil. And so I love my older brother.

[00:20:16] He's basically, he was like a dad to me. And so a lot of it was now this sounds like you're just talking about my older brother, hold up, man. My cousins are all fighters. And so it was a lot more of just like that. No, you can't be talking about my brother that way. And then in high school I kept kind of flipping back and forth because really at this point I was supposed to be looking for like a husband to start thinking of those kind of things.

[00:20:42] And so it was a flip between man, how I was supposed to find a husband versus why are they talking about my brother that way? And it kept going until my senior year of high school. Whenever really I will say like the majority of what I did was on oh, oh, spontaneous. It was very spontaneous. Cause I had no idea what I wanted in life.

[00:21:04] My, the people in my church were like, okay. I wanted to move out of my family's place because they are really poor. And so I wanted to stop being a burden on them. And so, because of that, I was really just trying to figure out how, how I'm supposed to interact with people. Because obviously I didn't have a husband at that point and so I couldn't just move out and live with them, but the church offered me a place to stay.

[00:21:33] And that was whenever I would start going to balls to go find more husband material, and then. . But during that time, I'll go back to it where I had actually overheard people talking about me, right?

[00:21:44] But it was because I had a public education. They weren't sure how well I would interact with the other men in the church, because they were looking for people that didn't, that were peering like kindhearted and didn't have a lot of early intelligence and growing up up.

[00:22:01] Toni: So, so what you're saying, I just wanna just bracketed, what you're saying is the talk of the town was since you had so much exposure to public education, would you be a good submissive fit for the culture for the cult culture? Is that, would that be correct?

[00:22:21] Gabriel: Yes, exactly. But also growing up in a public school, I had friends and we started trying to figure out what our types were right. And I realized I had a thing for intelligent men and so once I had overheard that conversation of, well, we don't know if she would be a good fit because she's so like intelligent. I realized every man I would meet at that ball would be dumb, and I'm-

[00:22:49] Toni: ah, that's funny!

[00:22:52] Gabriel: So I, I immediately started applying for a lot of scholarships.

[00:22:56] I applied to Northeastern state university here in Telequa and all of this was last minute, again, very spontaneous. It was June of the year that I would wanna go into NSU. And so that was ultimately why I decided to leave the cult was because everyone was gonna be very dumb and to wanna be a part of that.

[00:23:17] Toni: Oh man. Well, let's just say uneducated. uneducated.

[00:23:21] Gabriel: Yeah, uneducated.

[00:23:23] Toni: So, so, so where are you today with regard to you? You left the cult you're on your own. You didn't find a husband at the bald. Did you find a husband somewhere else? or in college? Did you make it to Northeastern? How are you surviving behind you making a living?

[00:23:42] And are you still in communication with your parents?

[00:23:45] Gabriel: I, so the first year of college, I, um, because my family were poor, you know, again, like a lot of motivations are coming from that kind of head space. I had worked as a janitor during my senior year of high school. And so I had money spare, but really the thing that I had in mind was my parents aren't gonna be able to financially support me through any. And so I had, I think I had eight different scholarships just to get me going.

[00:24:13] Cause I applied for anything from $200 to $2,000 and just kept going because I knew they weren't able to support me in one thing that my mom really drilled into me whenever I said, I think I'm gonna go to college was don't take out a loan cause that's where they get. You don't take out a loan. And so I really took that to heart because one, I know how painful it is to live in poverty. And I know from my entire lived experience that she just wants me to have more of an opportunity that way. And so I applied to every scholarship that I could get my hands on and I did it.

[00:24:50] I managed to get outta college without any debt, except for $2,000, which I managed to pay off in my last semester. Good. Um, yeah, a lot of hard work. I'm really good writer. And so I'm, I'm glad they gave me those, but really I think what I struggled the most with, because I felt like I could, I had a plan on what scholarships to do.

[00:25:12] I could write those things out, but what I didn't have a plan for was how to bring back my community. And so my first semester here at college was awful. I studied a lot. I stayed in my room, but I really didn't know how to talk to people again. It's I don't have great social skills. I'm a lot more outspoken now, but coming from a cult, I'm not.

[00:25:35] It's hard to talk about things. I also don't have a lot of like cultural, cultural things that everybody kind of knows. And so I started consuming a lot of media too, just to be understanding of where people are coming from. But again, I, it was a really difficult time just trying to figure it out. And then, gosh, I think I was walking in our university center.

[00:25:56] And I passed this table of a bunch of native women that were handing out cupcakes. And I was like, man, I could go for cupcakes. So I took one and it was the alpha pie omega sorority table, which is the first native American sorority ever created. And so I listened to them talk a little bit and they were like, we're gonna have a cookie decorating thing.

[00:26:16] And I'm like, man, I could go for a cookie . And so I started talking to all of these girls and the funniest thing is the one thing we had in common. Was, we were all very assured that we did not wanna be a part of a sorority. We like, we didn't wanna have a sorority life or anything like that, but they were all very cool.

[00:26:33] They came from many different tribes, any different backgrounds. And then, so our sorority, I am part of apple pie omega by the way. But so the sorority doesn't. Do things like a lot of other sororities, do they have the rush period where you get to know a bunch of people in two weeks, our sorority takes it six weeks for our process and it's really to get to know.

[00:26:58] The individual, rather than just what kind of groups are you in? What kind of cliques? And so my second semester in college, I decided to join this sorority and that opened up a whole new world of just being part of the indigenous community and learning my culture and sharing these experiences with my sisters.

[00:27:18] And so that was really the healing part of my journey in college was just finding all these indigenous women that had. Really driven goals of graduating and helping their community. And so I think what was the other half that question?

[00:27:36] Tony: Well, I, I wanted to know, did you eventually find your husband, husband, the other part was, are you still in communications with your parents?

[00:27:45] Gabriel: No, I haven't found a husband yet so I have a full-time job. Currently, I work for the native American agriculture fund as their associate communications officer. So I put from, I did have a boyfriend throughout college, but it didn't work out. And then now I'm pretty career focused, but I am still looking.

[00:28:05] I'm trying, not dating apps, which is an experie exterior. Obviously I am a character and the majority of who I am as a person comes from the fact that I was in a cult my entire life . And again, so I have to navigate really in the first few conversations like, Hey, I was part of a cult. I'm not gonna understand a lot of things you're saying. I will learn though, but I don't know it.

[00:28:28] So it's a little bit difficult dating. And we also, we had a book called courtship dating and marriage that we were supposed to live, but I don't have it on me cuz my brother wanted to look at it. But I now I had to discover that people don't live by those roles. And so trying to figure out what dating means for me is an entirely different journey.

[00:28:50] But yes, and then with my parents, for the first few years of college, I was really angry at them. And I think it came from that healing of like just everything of trying to figure out who I am as a person, uh, what I expected of them, of what they, what I wanted them to give me versus the reality of what happened.

[00:29:11] And sorry, if I start tear up a little bit, it's still a healing journey, but I kind of talked with it with one of my friends. And she said that really went through all the stages of grief in understanding my relationship with. Who they are as people and who I am as a person, but I still love them very dearly.

[00:29:30] You know, I know all of it comes from a space of love. And so taking that into account, that's where I get the majority of my forgiveness for them from a lot of the different things throughout my childhood is really, they just love me. And they really wanted to give me a better chance at life than they had as kids and I took that and ran with it.

[00:29:54] Toni: So, wow. Gabrielle, you're gonna help a lot of young people with what you just said. And a lot of parents who, you know, we're parents of four and our youngest is your age. And so maybe that was what I was hearing or connecting with you with. He was adopted and he's just trying to find his way.

[00:30:17] And he's very angry at us and we did the best we could with what we and, and I hope that helps you. The love was always there. It has always been there for us of, for our children and, you know, we didn't always get it right. Um, but you know, there is humanity in that. And then humanity is in, in just being able to share the love.

[00:30:46] So I hope that helps a little bit from a parent's perspective, we do the best we can with what we have. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Tony, did you have another comment or question I'm full.

[00:31:01] Tony: I'm full. This is thank you for giving us opportunity to speak with you. Thank you for joining black family table talk. We appreciate you and God bless you. This is black family table talk.

[00:31:13] Toni: That's what's up. Gabrielle you did it. You got through it. It was awesome. I think you're gonna help a lot of folks. I wanna send you a gift. I wanna send you a donation, a love offering. So if you could please kind of think the best way to do it, email me your, your, yeah, I have your email address. I'm trying to think how can I do I'll just Amazon gift card. Will that work for you?

[00:31:40] Gabriel: Yeah, sure.

[00:31:41] Toni: Look for an look for an Amazon gift card in the email today. All right. God bless you.

[00:31:46] Gabriel: Yes, I had so such a great time talking with you guys. Yeah.

[00:31:50] Toni: Awesome. Bye bye.