Black Family Table Talk
Black Family Table Talk
S7:E3 | Toxic Positivity: Why White People Can't Face Racism
In this explosive episode of Black Family Table Talk, we cut to the bone examining the cause of anti-Blackness in our culture. Dr. Jill Wener is our courageous guest. She is the co-creator of a self-study course called Conscious Anti-Racism: Tools for Self Discovery, Accountability, and Meaningful Change. (Take 15% off with promo code: BFTT15)
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By trading in aspects of our own culture are what makes us individuals and what makes us unique. By trading that in to get access to whiteness, because the definition of whiteness has expanded over time, for convenience, basically. By trading that and we kind of -she calls it a soul death, like we have to trade in part of our soul to get access to this whiteness thing and it just blew my mind when she talked about that.
Tony:Welcome to season seven of Black Family Table Talk. We are your host, Toni and Tony. Join us on our journey to discover ways to build a strong black family.
Toni Henson:This season is sponsored by ABTF travels. Join us as we travel each year beyond borders off the beaten path, to immerse ourselves in cultures that celebrate our Pan African heritage. Each journey is specially curated to provide you with what promises to be a bucket list transformative experience.
Tony:I can't wait until we go again. In the meantime, we have a very special guest joining us at the kitchen table this week. Listen up.
Toni Henson:Welcome to Black Family Table Talk. Dr. Wener. We are excited to have you.
Tony:Yes, we are.
Dr. Wener:You can call me Jill. I put the MD up there just because sometimes people care but I don't actually care. See?
Toni Henson:Well, you have a very interesting background. I was very intrigued and wanted to get you on the show because normally, we have people who have experience the trauma of living while black in the United States. So I wanted to get a different perspective and get your take on anti racism and this movement that you have so bravely, courageously been working to counter act. So tell us how you got started in your journey to combat racism in the US?
Dr. Wener:Well, first off, thank you for having me, I did have to double check. I was like, do know that I'm white, right? So I do appreciate you having me on the show. I have a lifetime of whiteness, like I certainly didn't like lived my whole life the way that I wish I had. I don't think I was like the worst that could be but I was your typical, liberal, well intending white person who didn't think they were racist. That's me to a tee. So when I hear people saying that, I know you and I continue to be that, obviously. I think for me, when it really, really started was in 2016, I wrote a blog post because I had done my meditation teacher training. I thought I had all the spiritual wisdom to offer people. I was like, we're gonna be okay, I promise. It got a lot of really great response but then a friend of mine, who's a sociologist, actually, a white woman, sent me a message that said, Hey, I thought you might want to read this article. I think your blog post is really privileged. And the name of the article was dear white people, please stop telling me it's gonna be okay. That was literally the name of my, my blog post. So I had an extremely defensive reaction to myself, just because we were on Messenger, and I think I was actually out of the country at the time, but I was like, Who is she? Why did she think? I'm not racist! What does she mean? All of that. But then I was like, Well, I don't want to be that. Whether she's saying, I didn't know the term "privilege". I obviously lived it. So I knew it. But I didn't know what like specifically that it was called that and how it played out. I started reading and I realized that she was totally right. And so I just started learning and reading and reading and learning. For a really long time, it was a personal journey. I never thought I'd be teaching people about it and think I had necessarily anything to teach. Then I went on an allies and action ally ship retreat in 2019, led by Leslie Mac, and Paige Ingram. And it was basically lots of amazing workshops, and then meeting amongst each other and struggling and learning and then struggling again, and then learning and doing all of that. And as we're going through we were talking about the characteristics of white supremacy culture, that worked by Team Oakland and Kenneth Jones and how we recognize it in our bodies. I'm sorry, that wasn't how we did, it was how do you recognize that in your life? How do you recognize things like defensiveness, perfectionism and the right to comfort and all of these. Like characteristics of this culture that we all live in and are impacted in different ways. For me, I was like, I'm a meditation teacher and a tapping practitioner. So I'm all about the mind and body connection. And I feel like to some success, use these tools to help me process the way those come up in me. So when I'm defensive, I may get defensive but then I'm also going to kind of connect with that and use it as a moment to learn. So I don't always get it right at all. But I kind of had this aha moment with the guidance of the women leading the retreat. Maybe I can teach white people to use some tools to lean into this discomfort, to not shut down. And that's how I began. That's how conscious anti racism began. And it didn't really flourish until I met my partner, who's a black woman, Dr. Misha Clairborne, another physician, and we kind of put our experiences and expertise and energy together, and that is what eventually became the conscious anti racism that we have today. Long answer.
Tony:No. Very good answer. Could you give us a little bit about your background? I understand you're a medical doctor. You practice internal medicine and you did that for 10 years? Are you still doing that?
Dr. Wener:No, I actually left in 2015 unintentionally, but I And now you're into the conscious health meditation and went into teacher training in India for a few months and had the opportunity to live overseas in China. And then by the time I tapping and rest technique. Now, when you started doing that, did had been out for six plus months, I had another skill that I could actually do. I decided not to go back. It didn't feel like it resonated. that kind of lead into exposing you to anti racism, or that was separate. It felt separate at the time. I think actually looking back, there's a whole host of the ways that whiteness shows up in the wellness, space and cultural appropriation and toxic positivity and all sorts of stuff. So I think that it is very intimately tied into the system of white supremacism and racism. But at the time, I was just like, we're all the typical, we're all one thing. I wouldn't think I was at, I was never like, an All Lives Matter person. That wasn't me. But certainly, we're all connected, but not actually connecting. So I think on some levels, it gave me the tools to do the deeper work, but on some levels that also initially kind of separated me because I was like, I'm making the world a better place. I'm a meditation teacher. So and as a doctor, I don't think any doctor is gonna be like, Yeah, but issue with racism, like, the system is so broken, and I don't even think we realize how indoctrinated we are. I don't think I saw that at the time. The meditation and the tapping, absolutely helped me kind of process stress in a different way. So that when I started to realize that there was an issue that I needed to contend with personally and out in the world, I was able to regulate myself, and I was able to do it in a hopefully, productive way. But I think sometimes if we hide ourselves in wellness practices, as white people, we can pretend like everything is fine, and that we don't have a problem. So I think the answer to your question is, yes, and no, I guess.
Toni Henson:It's interesting that you talk about toxic positivity. Can you elaborate on that term? That's the first time
Dr. Wener:Oh, yeah. It's such a good term. It's the blanketing I've ever heard it. over of negative emotions, with everything should be okay, let's all just focus on what's happy and positive, without honoring lived experience. So there's definitely room in this world for affirmations. And there's definitely room in this world for thinking positive of course but if someone comes to me and says, Oh, I'll just this one example is popping into my head. So I have one of my tapping clients who was working through being abused as a child - molested by a family member, and she's going through it and I was trying to be like, Well, but you chose this life and you learned and you learn the lessons from it that you needed to learn. She was like, Nah, I'm not accepting that, I did not choose this. I think that the toxic positivity is this need to like, find a lesson and everything and, and kind of not honor people's pain. I think it happens in all all different places, and all different ways, and it's really rampant in the wellness community. I think it stems from a discomfort with people's pain, and an unwillingness to sit with that, and not having the skills or the tools or the understanding to do that.
Toni Henson:Where's the hope? Because Trayvon Martin was assassinated in 2012. And I dedicated my life to comforting and healing African Americans. And I do that in several ways. I started the a theatre festival, so that we can tell our stories and heal because I truly believe in the end the power of our healing. And, we started this podcast in 2020, and our own struggles to stay together as a married couple with all of the external influences that we have and the struggles that we have with raising children. So I stopped trying to teach white folks about our pain, and kind of got free from that and just kind of threw my hands up and said, Okay, it's not getting better the hostility is toxic. So where's the hope?
Dr. Wener:I think it's a great question. And I want to just thank you for sharing your experience, and your purpose and your why and recognizing the need to separate yourself for your own self care. I think that's important. A lot of white people don't get that, that we can happen dangerous, even just existing. I think the hope is the more we learn about trauma, and maybe, the more we learn about trauma, the more we realize that trauma can be heal. And trauma shows up in different places, in different ways, with different people. And if we can, in some way start to heal our nation's trauma. There's like individual trauma, there's nations trauma, there's, and there's people doing amazing work, there's people doing Cymatics and trauma work, and a lot of that. And so I think that the collective consciousness as as it's like, spiraling out of control into horribleness, it's also growing and expanding. I feel like, my hope is that the people doing amazing work, the work that you're doing, and the theater that you're doing, and that will continue to give people places to heal and share their stories. And then when people start to understand, Hey, there's, there's work that needs to be done that can somehow triumph. I do feel a little hopeless right now, just because so many bad things, macro, bad things keep happening, like over and over and over again. But I do feel like I'm in community with a lot of really incredible people who are not only black people doing this work. I feel there is community in that way. I think we have to just, we white people be really willing to get uncomfortable, and just get in there and let our egos go. That's hard to do when you haven't had to do that. When you haven't had that, to build that resilience. So I don't know if that build any hope. But I think there's a lot of amazing things in this world. And I'm just kind of seeing like the response to the Supreme Court about to turn over Roe v. Wade, and, and the reproductive justice community coming together and, and community care. It's bringing out the best in a lot of ways and I think without hope we we don't have much, so I feel like things have to change. And I hope that they will.
Tony:While I was excited about the work that you're doing, and through working with your patients, by anti racism, you talk about meditation, and I'm just curious to know, what are you your thoughts on how racism affects black people differently than affects white people? And are there any common similarities between the two groups? Or we're in two different worlds and there's no connection?
Dr. Wener:That's a really good question. And I want to answer it carefully. I think that there's no way for white people to understand the lived experience of what black people experience. I can read about it. I can have friendships and relationships and talk to people in here and were in witness it but I can't know what it's like. On that extent, I'm never gonna know.
Tony:I don't want it from that perspective. I want it from a white person's perspective. Racism affect both of us. So what's the damage done to white folks? It's obvious what black folks are going through. Is it just a mindset? Is it just white privilege? It's a byproduct of it. Or is there a mental state?
Dr. Wener:Yeah, I think it's destroying everything. I think racism is absolutely harming white people in a different way. While I don't have the lived experience of it, I can see and there's a wonderful book called The Some of uU by Heather McGee, that talks about the way that because of racism, white people have suffered predatory loans, home mortgages, health, health care - refusal to expand universal health care because of not wanting to give Black people access. It's underneath everything. Reproductive rights, student loans, public schools, all of it is was designed by white people to keep their own privilege, keep their own things and keep other people out, whoever they perceive is different. But it ends up coming back and harming them. So it it harms us, not just on those kind of practical levels, but I think it destroys our souls. I don't even want to say a little bit, I think a lot. And Ruby Sales is a incredible activist and she taught me, not directly to me, but that by trading in aspects of our own culture, or what makes us individuals, and what makes us unique, by trading that in to get access to whiteness, because the definition of whiteness has expanded over time, for convenience, basically. By trading that in, we kind of, she calls it a soul death, we have to trade in part of our soul to get access to this whiteness thing. And it just blew my mind when she talked about that. So I think that we all suffer, and we are all impacted by it. And I think it's going to take a lot more awakening to really for white people to really see it. It's almost like doubling down against everything that's being shown of how harmful it is. It's like no, I have to cling to this mindset. I don't want to come off like I'm better than other white people. I'm not.
Tony:How does racism manifests itself and your life and white people's life? I mean, is that where the fear comes from? Why is there fear? Why is there need to always squash the gains of black people? Your privilege, you have enough. Well, you have the opportunity. Not that white folks don't have struggles. We all know it different struggles. But it seems like there's a collective effort to stop the progress of black people. Is that connection to your work to why that is?
Dr. Wener:Yeah. The way that has made sense for me is if you think about the culture that upholds racism, so not just racism itself, but like white supremacy culture. The culture of defensiveness and perfectionism, and there's all these different characteristics that's what I was mentioning before that work by time open. Like individualism, right to comfort. I like this belief that I have the God given right to be comfortable at all times. If I think about the culture that pervades our whole country, is that and so that culture of white supremacy culture is going to impact us all in a different way. But it's going to make white people think that they should be comfortable all the time, it's going to make white people think that there's a certain way to do things my way, like this way that is around us. It's because it's a systemic thing, it's what we're all raised in it. But we all take it in different ways. As a white girl, looking at the news and looking at who's riding the bus versus who's not riding the bus in my neighborhood and, and seeing the way black people are portrayed in the media and seeing only white people around me at my private school. All of that, that's going to ingrain in me in a certain way that is it needs to be disrupted. Until we start disrupting all the different messages that people are receiving, it's not just at home, it's everywhere. So there isn't an ingrained, like implicitly and explicitly taught superiority. That's absolutely wrong. But it's kind of what's taught. I think that has to be disrupted. Because white people are scared like we're the scary ones. We're the ones that cause harm yet there's this somehow belief that, Oh, I'm going to be afraid of the black person walking on the street, which doesn't make any sense. But it's so ingrained in the culture that it's hard for white people who are saying, Oh, I'm not impacted by race, not seeing that they are absolutely 100% impacted by race. So I think if you're not on the receiving end of it, it's harder to be aware that it's happening. And that's where hopefully, some of the work that I do with Dr. Maisha, bringing awareness to people, that this is what it looks like. And it's in all of us. It is not a thing to point fingers at other people. My hope is that because most white people aren't going to be like, consciously like, Oh, I want to keep black people down. But the behaviors in the system that we participate in to that. We have to see the bigger picture and also the role that we're playing in it, even if it's not something a lot of people say, Oh, well, I'm don't tell racist jokes, or I don't do these things, therefore, I'm not part of the system. And I think we are.
Toni Henson:I think there are some behaviors that white people need to be more aware of. And even though they may have the self perception, there are things like microaggressions. That's all a part of the oppression, that's all a part of racism. Even the lack, or the inability to acknowledge when somebody identifies as black. I have a very robust social media following. And the festival is called the Atlanta Black Theatre Festival, not a day goes by where someone white does not post. I guess, they think they're clever by saying, Oh, no, I think I want to go to the White Theatre Festival, or calling the festival racist. So even just identifying as black comes with its own set of hostilities, how do you move through that because I'm not even engaging it anymore. I just delete it. i How do you move through that. It's easy for me to say because my husband's in corporate America, and he engages with it, and he's the strongest person I know. My children are in these environments but I had to protect after the insurrection, I left the country because I could not take it. I guess it's more of a comment but what do you do when you can't even identify as black. And I know your work is, you're an ally and an empathizer. So I get your position, but I am. Can you respond?
Dr. Wener:Absolutely. Again, thank you for sharing what you've been through and I just want to honor and acknowledge everything that you're saying and all of your experiences. I think a lot of times there's like No, you're not experiencing that, or Oh, you're playing the race card And you're not. I just want to say that, I think on a micro level, I think if White people can learn, and it's not just white people, I think other non black people of color, there's work to be done by everybody in terms of anti blackness. I think if we can learn to let be like, Okay, I have this lived experience me as Jill, like I am a white woman. I am Jewish woman. So I've experienced some degree of something. Also there's a whole other, there's black people who have this experience, and there's people who have all these different experiences. None of it makes my experience any less valid, or any less painful. And my experience doesn't need to compare. It doesn't have to be a, I know what you're talking about because I've had someone called me a name when I was 10. I think that if we can help people understand that, they can have their their pain and their experience, and that doesn't mean that we understand and it also doesn't mean that giving people space to be who they are without having to explain themselves, that that's not racism, that's survival, thriving. That's what's needed when white people start to realize that the whiteness is the norm and that there is a need for separate spaces - I think that hopefully will be a sign towards progress. But I think there's so much of mine, like this has to be mine and I have to keep all the the power or the money or the whatever else. I have to feel some sense of betterness - I meaning the global I, not just me. If I give up, if someone else gets something, then I'm giving away something rather than let's bring all of us up. And also realizing that like what whiteness has always been is not something to aspire to. Like there's this whole myth is that, we've got it figured out and like people should want to be like us. No. I mean, I'm not saying Oh, there's good white people. I'm not saying that but there's like whiteness versus there's obviously people of all races who are wonderful people but whiteness itself is like myth that it's not real. And it's real, because it's experienced, but it's not right. And so I just think that giving yourself the space to care for yourself. And if you need to leave the country, or if you need to do what you need to do to have peace and joy in your day and connect with your family and your job, and then do that, and deleting the comments rather than engaging in them - that's an act of resistance. And for white people listening, when they hear someone saying, Oh, this or that happened because of race. Not just give them the benefit of the doubt, but to believe them immediately, and honor that and name that, I think, will go a long way, at least on a day to day level. I don't know how much that helps the system just yet but I think that we all have the right to go through our day feeling valued. Most people learn what microaggressions are and what they are, and why. Not just Oh, I shouldn't say that because I was told by some politically correct person that I'm not supposed to say that. But actually understanding the impact of that behavior on a living human being, then maybe that's steps in the right direction, where you can go to work and feel safe. It's like the bare minimum. It's ridiculous that we even have to be talking about it but you should be able to go to work and feel safe and valued and you can contribute and people want you to. Did I answer your question, I feel like I'm rambling at this point.
Toni Henson:You're making a lot of sense and I don't think that we have enough of these candid conversations because this takes courage to have these types of conversations, even if we disagree. A lot of folks don't want to have them. So I applaud you, Jill for wanting to at least have the conversation, not only wanting to have the conversation, but the want to put your life's work into trying to make it better, because I really do believe that our healing begins outside of the black community. It starts there. But I also think that simultaneously, we have work to do to counter all of the trauma that we've experienced over the last 400 years. So we do a trip to Ghana, every year, my husband and I, where we take people back to connect to their roots. And we do naming ceremonies and healing ceremonies last year, 37 people have signed up for this year. And we were going to do until nobody wants to go anymore. We think it's a huge part of taking back our narrative and understanding from where we came. So how can people take advantage of the work that you do and was it designed for?
Dr. Wener:So I first off, I just want to say your trip to Ghana sounds amazing. And I think I'm just kind of comparing that to like medical mission work, like the whole like white savior thing. Returning back there, it was such a connection and a reclaiming. I love everything about what you're doing with that. So the course that I created with Dr. Clairborne, initially, we designed it for white people to develop resilience, to build the tools to get uncomfortable, because these are all going to be uncomfortable. I'm getting much better at being uncomfortable. And there's still times where I'm just but that's where I know I'm in the right place. So how can we sit in that? How can we lean into that discomfort rather than shutting down or getting defensive? Or doing all the things that you've experienced? And how do we like behave ourselves? How do we comport ourselves and like not do the micro aggressions and become aware of what those are and communication skill. So that's what started but what we realize along the way is the few things - first off, the tools that we teach are helpful for everybody. So self compassion is one of the things in there, tapping, which is the emotional freedom technique, which is I'm a practitioner in that, that's been incredible. It's a tool that I use in multiracial spaces to like, when the works getting really intense, we use tapping to kind of help ourselves with the overwhelming and the despair that can go along with it. And a lot of these tools can be used for self care in the same way that you're deciding who you're going to comment, reply to comments, and if who you're going to engage with, it's another form of self care. So these tools can be used for self care and they can also one of the one of the millions of great things that Maisha contributes is how it's been internalized for her. So how this culture, the system of racism has impacted her in how she sees herself and how to start dismantling that. So how perfectionism might show up in her parenting. How only one right way. Do you want to comment?
Toni Henson:I do. As a person of African descent, living in America, I have observed extremely harsh parenting, out of the fear of letting our children loose in a world that has zero tolerance for mistakes. It is emotionally crippling to see it, and to do it, and we've been guilty of it. And it is probably the most painful part of being black in America.
Dr. Wener:Thank you for sharing that. That has come up around perfectionism a lot. I hear a lot of that, the way it's internalized, and also that unattainable standard that you can try and try and never get to. That perfectionism really strikes a chord with people a lot. So kind of getting back to the course, it allows, I think it names for black folks and other people of color, but particularly for black people like it names like, Oh, that's what that was, I've experienced. So that was a thing, that wasn't just me inventing it. That's why and that's how it showed up and here's what I can do to kind of realize it and not perpetuate it in a way from my own place of trauma. So I think we've, we've redesigned the course recently, to really try to reflect to explicitly say, Okay, if you are a white person, it can help you with this. If you are in another other identities, here's how it may help you, here's what it may offer to you. I think it's still primarily, it's an anti racism course so it's primarily going to be directed for for people who need to learn the most about racism, which is white people to in order to like dismantle it in themselves. But we wanted anyone taking the course to feel like they're heard and that they're part of the process, and that they can get something out of it, and to not have it kind of re traumatize them, if they're taking the course as part of a workplace training, that there's a place for them, as well. And it's not just a white center thing, but it's for everybody.
Toni Henson:Now is it self study?
Dr. Wener:Yeah. So it's self study, it's online, pre recorded, and for people who want to bring it to their workplace. We do have group pricing and stuff and we also do some facilitation, if there's a group that wants to do it. So included in the big group, Maisha and I will do a facilitated zoom call where we can help people take a deeper dive into some of the skills that we teach or any of the other stuff in there as well.
Tony:Thank you so much, Jill, it's been very insightful. The information you provided, it's very encouraging that you and your partner are doing this work. And I wish you guys all success, and continue doing what you're doing.
Dr. Wener:Thank you for having me on and for asking the tough questions. I know I couldn't answer all of them. But I hope that this dialogue continues, and thank you for allowing me into your space. Honestly, I feel honored that you would even consider having the conversation with me.
Tony:Well, the way I look at it, the work has to be done. We can't keep ignoring each other. It would self destructive we do, we want to coexist in this world society in this country. Some work has to be done. And it's unfortunate that this country has decided to just let bygones be bygones and not addressed the issue. Just imagine, and I know a lot of folks that get over slavery, get over it. But if if you if you were a slave back in 1865, and someone said, you're free, you're free to go, no counseling, no food, no clothing, you just free to go. And we're still living with the results of that treatment. Just you're on your own and wander around. And then we have to deal with all the other things that try to put you back in your place - vagrancy laws, Jim Crow laws, truancy laws - all kinds of stuff that put you back in prison and make you another slave again, and we had to overcome all of that. And it's only been a little over 150 years, what we talking about. We have some successes, but the dehumanization of black people as really taking its toll. Black folks have to recognize that and we also have to free ourselves from that trauma as we live in this space. We just asked that some consideration be given this a long way up from slavery to corner phrase, big Gregory. But it seems that the task is so enormous that nothing can can be done. That's why I really appreciate you taking the time. Because the damage that's been done to us, we're dealing with ourselves. It will be great if we had a country that could take the lead and say, Look, this is a problem. How can we work this out? And without disapairing, that it's a handout to blacks, that's going to irritate make white folks upset. Because racism has affected everybody. There's something there's something in there for whites to get to, I don't know what what that is shaped like what it looks like. But through this journey, we all been suffering through it. And it comes out in different ways. It comes out and white supremacy, it comes out and white nationalism, it comes out and fear and hate, speaking from a right person's perspective, and that's only just me looking at it from the outside looking in. I really don't know. Some type of counseling or meditate, we need something for both groups to go through to come out on the other side of this without thinking if I get a gain, it's taken away from you. But if we can come to the understanding that mentally and socially, racism has affected everybody, and we have to come to some common ground and everybody has to say, Hey, let's work at this. I'm sorry for getting on a soapbox. I could go on and on and off.
Dr. Wener:I can listen all day. I totally agree. I know, we were kind of like, wrapping up, but but I feel like the experience of white people, I think you asked me this. I think it's racism is so bad. Oh my god, it's so horrible that it's going on out there. And there's the racism is bad, we should be fun. But there's a I think a lot of times a lack of looking inside of how we're contributing and I think that's maybe what perpetuates. I don't want to like center whiteness here. I think most white people are going to say that racism is horrible, and they want everyone to have the same rights, and they want all of that. And the racism is out there. It is this problem out in a different place that I think is that and therefore I don't have any work to do. And I think that that's probably the experience, at least most white people that I'm that I interact, are going to have. A denial of bias, like a denial of, Oh, I have the fear, Oh, I have the this thought. It sucks to say that. And it sucks to acknowledge that to myself that Oh my god, I might be scared of a black man's walking towards me on the street. But if we pretend it's not there, then nothing gets better. But if I can say, Oh, look at that, like I'm having this fear response. Isn't that ridiculous? There's nothing for me to be scared of but honoring, acknowledging that I'm having it, I think that's by getting in that uncomfortable stuff. Talking about the stuff that we don't have the feelings, that we don't want to talk about the biases that we don't want to talk about. That's how we bring it to a lot of it's at the surface, obviously, but like, that's how we bring it to the surface in ourselves, and then start to see how it's interacting in my life, how it's controlling me in ways that I'm not even aware of. So everything you're saying, yes, I feel like that intergenerational trauma. Slavery, it's got a different name today, I guess. But it's still very much impacting and I think for people to think it's not that we've moved past anything, I think is harmful and ignorant and everything, like, it's not just not understanding it's actually harmful. So I thank you for your soapbox. And I thank you for sharing. Again, for allowing me to be part of this conversation with you. I'll talk to you all day long. So if you ever want me to talk to anybody or be a part of anything you're doing I would be.
Toni Henson:Thank you, Dr. Jill Wener. The course is called
Conscious Anti-racism:Tools for self discovery, Acountability and Meaningful change. It is for anybody who wants to heal and live in an anti racist world. We thank you so much for being part of the Black Family Table Talk today. That's what's up!
Tony:That concludes this week's talk. We hope you found some tools to add to your strong black family toolbox. And be sure to sign up for free subscription at BlackFamilyTableTalk.com for special discounts and product offers reserved exclusively for you.
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