Black Family Table Talk
Black Family Table Talk
S6:E8 | Can We Really Trust This Vaccine?
Tony and Toni have a VERY candid conversation with two Black physicians to challenge the efficacy of the Covid vaccine in the Black community.
To find vaccines near you, visit vaccines.gov. This episode is paid for by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Together We Can Do This!
I have to admit that this is a really tough conversation to have because we've lost so many friends and family to COVID. Additionally, a cousin of our age was vibrant, living life, loving life. She caught COVID a year ago. She is now learning how to walk, she can't breathe, and she can't support herself. So this episode is dedicated to her. Her strength, her resilience, but more important, it's to get information out to you, our community. In partnership with the "We Can Do This" campaign and the W. Montague Cobb Institute, we're helping parents and families fight against the latest COVID surge. Family, I'm with you. This is a controversial subject, but we've never shied away from controversy. So we're going to pull back the layers and we're going to get the real deal. So listen up.
Tony:Welcome to season six of Black Family Table Talk. We are your host Tony and Toni. Listen in weekly as we share unique stories that inspire, build and give voice to strengthen black families.
Toni Henson:This season is sponsored by Fran"s body care. These are handmade products made from organic ingredients. I personally recommend you try free me deodorant. It really works. And it's free of aluminum taupe perfumes and other harmful pore clogging substances. You can shop these and other black owned businesses on our website at BlackFamilyTableTalk.com. Well, welcome to Black Family Table Talk. We are in the building today with Dr. Samira Brown and Dr. Kimiyo. Am I pronouncing that right? Williams
Dr. Williams:It's Kimiyo.
Toni Henson:Kimiyo. Beautiful name. Wow. That's different. Williams. Okay, so Dr. Brown and Dr. Williams, I am so happy to have you. Because we need to get the word out there. This is a mess we're in. And as you all may or may not know, we're going to talk about COVID. COVID is tearing up our communities. And we need to get to the bottom of it. And I'm hoping and praying with everything in me that we will impact and enlighten. If we could just reach one person today, that would be worth everything. So let's start out with Dr. Brown. What's going on in our community? How can you speak to what the task is at hand and how we can do better?
Dr. Brown:You know, I absolutely love that question. And I can't applaud you guys enough for really bringing this topic up. Because we've seen a lot of COVID fatigue recently. I'm a pediatrician, and I know that we are two years into this pandemic. But we really need to put those boots back on and we need our community to hang in there with us. In large part because our community is affected differently by COVID than others, right? If you're black or you're brown, your outcomes are very different. And certainly we're at an unprecedented time, with as contagious, as the Omicron variant is and vaccinations are now available for those who are five and up. And we definitely have some work to do in terms of getting everyone who's eligible vaccinated.
Toni Henson:Dr. Williams?
Dr. Williams:Yes. So what we're seeing in Louisiana, we're seeing a lot of positive COVID cases and kids, which is different from what we've seen before. And parents are nervous about it. The kids are a little hypersensitive and overly sensitive. And sometimes, that anxiety level is really high, and the kids and so we're seeing a lot of mental health issues as well as it relates to COVID because the kids are so anxious about it. We really need to be mindful of their developmental understanding of COVID-19 because I think that's something that we don't talk about a lot. And that anxiety as it relates to COVID is something that we need to also address.
Tony:So I want to ask a question, how do we protect ourselves and our family other than getting the vaccination? How do we put Fact ourselves, our family, our loved ones, when we have some folks out there don't believe in vaccination. So what do we do to to help that situation?
Dr. Williams:Well, I think the key is education from trusted sources. Most people trust their providers, they trust their physicians. And so we also have to unpack a lot of misinformation that's been out there. I think, for me, I've had success when I just sit down and talk to the patient and say, Look, this is a virus, and this virus is a new virus. It's what we call a novel virus. And it's novel, because we, as humans have, we've never seen this virus, so we don't have any immunity to the virus against the virus, and also the scientific community, the medical community, we haven't seen it. So we don't know how COVID-19, we didn't know how it would behave. But what we didn't know is how viruses behave. And this virus is no different from how other viruses behave. In that, we know that how to create vaccines, to decrease the spread and transmission of a virus. And so a virus needs a host, the virus cannot live without a host for long outside of the body. And so I sit down and I kind of try, I try to break it down in their terms so they can understand. And then in that, tell them how the vaccine works. And how it decreases the viral load and how it changes. It gives a message to your body to create immunity against those bright proteins on the COVID-19 virus. So I think it starts with educating our patients in the community, from trusted sources, people they trust. I mean, we have to also remember when we're talking about the African American community, there's a lot of mistrust, because of unethical practices of the past. And we can't, we have to talk about it, we have to address it, we have to acknowledge that. But we also have to let our population and our people know that there are safeguards in place now for that. So I think that's where we start, we start with a conversation like we're having today.
Dr. Brown:Absolutely. If I can just tag in here with Dr. Williams, I agree. 100%. I think the other thing is that if you have folks who are hesitant, and rightly so that they have questions. This is a new virus and new vaccine. And we want to be open to hearing those questions. So knowing that we're not here to judge you, we're here to answer your questions. And really tailor our advice to you, the patient. And so I would definitely say seek out your pediatrician, seek out your doctor. And if you have loved ones who have questions or are not sure, really be open to hearing what their concerns are, because everyone's concerns are different. And so it's really important that folks get individualized advice. And I think it's so important that folks understand that safety studies don't stop, we will always look at safety for every single vaccine that we're giving. And so I think that piece is really important for families to understand.
Toni Henson:How do you overcome, though that the apathy factor, and I don't want to say it seems like every great. I have four children, three of them are vaccinated, and one just absolutely, he doesn't care about others, he doesn't care about protecting others. He is just super selfish. And it's just frustrating. I've talked to some other my friends and they're saying that their millennial children are the same. That half of them get the vaccination and the other, some of them don't and it's like when you ask them why there's no like, the answer/response doesn't make sense. And that I think, is more frustrating than anything because it's like, give me a reason why this makes sense that you shouldn't want to protect yourself. They don't even go back into I don't trust the medical system. Because then, we you can respond with some, well look at this, look at that. Can you speak to that?
Dr. Brown:You know, I think you have to take it on an individual basis and realize that a lot of these are going to be a series of conversations. I think a lot of my families it was like a third of them, were already on board a third of them you could convince with one conversation and a third, you're gonna have a series of conversations and I think a lot of folks as they see more and more data come out. I mean, a lot of kids don't realize that there are 16 point 4 million children just in the age group of 12 to 17, who have been safely vaccinated just here in the United States, that's a lot of safety data. If we look to five to 11 year olds, there are over 8 million children who've been safely vaccinated. So I think it really speaks to the fact that we really are paying attention to safety, and that we prioritize to that. And I think the other piece is talking about long haul and long COVID kids who have chronic fatigue, or headaches or diabetes, sometimes you tailor it to someone who's sick in their family, right. So maybe it's not someone in their immediate family. But maybe their best friend has sickle cell disease, maybe their uncle is undergoing chemo. So I think we also use the things that we know about our families and tailor our advice to them, right. So we have to acknowledge that most children are going to have either mild or no symptoms if they get COVID. But that certainly does not mean that the person they pass it off to will have that type of mild illness. And especially in our communities, where we're one in five families here in the US are just, have caretakers, multi generational families, where you can't necessarily isolate away from those who are going to be at higher risk. And really learning how to come together as a family to address both the fears and the risks that each family is taking is really important.
Dr. Williams:I just want to say I definitely agree with Dr. Brown, one of my parents had the same situation, you have Ms. Tony, and she told her son, I mean, you won't be able to see me unless you get vaccinated because of her underlying condition. And so I think when you put it to them, and you tell them that they have to take into account their own personal family members who they're putting at risk, sometimes that makes them think about where I have to think about someone else and not just myself. I'm making this decision, not just for me, but for my community. And I like to tell people, this is a public health issue. This is not my issue as Dr. Williams. This is not, Sally's issue got COVID. This is our issue. And we have to do this together, because it's a public health issue.
Toni Henson:Amen
Tony:Dr. Williams, you are absolutely correct. It is a public issue. I have a question about, we had the COVID-19. We had the Delta variant, we had the Omicron variant. So could you tell us the difference between the three, how severe each one of them. Is the first one is still around? Or we just dealing with the Omicron now and the delta? And what can we expect in the future as this thing continues.
Dr. Williams:So I can speak to Louisiana, 100% of the cases that we are seeing now are Omicron, it is less severe, and those who are fully vaccinated, usually like in kids, we sometimes don't see any symptoms, but they have kind of mild cold symptoms, congestion, runny nose, those types of things. I've had people to to pass away from Omicron. So it has a lot to do with vaccinations, as well. And we can't expect, we're seeing some other variants overseas right now, we don't know if they will make it here. But the Omicron variant is less severe in those who are fully vaccinated, then delta was. But it still does not, because it's less severe in those who are fully vaccinated, it doesn't give a license for those who are not vaccinated not to get vaccinated, because we know that the virus mutates with those who are unvaccinated. So that's how we get all of these variants. So it's very important, even if you are, even if you've had Omicron to get still get vaccinated.
Dr. Brown:And I think that is it's such an important point that you're making, because I think a lot of folks have heard that Omicron was milder. And so they thought this is my free pass, but it's really important for folks to understand that it's milder and those who are vaccinated, and we do mean fully vaccinated. Even when we look at cases in children, there are studies that are coming out now that virtually if you're vaccinated, your child will stay out of the ICU, which is a big difference. We also have to remember that our infants, our zero to one certainly are not at low risk for complications of COVID. And certainly the other complications specifically in children is a post acute inflammatory disease that children can get. So other than them getting long haul they can get MISE or M-I-S-E which is an inflammatory disease that happens anywhere to a couple of weeks to a few weeks after a COVID infection, even if they didn't know they had COVID, where they get very sick very fast. And this is predominantly again, in black and brown children. I know that both Georgia and Louisiana have some of the highest rates of these cases. And though it is rare, it is a very serious complication, most of those children will be in the ICU, and one out of 100 of those children don't survive. So it's really important that we understand there are other complications that come even with Omicron. And certainly in terms of long haul, it also reduces if you're vaccinated reduces your chance of having that by about 50%. So that's a huge piece of information that a lot of times our community doesn't have. So definitely, even though omachron is milder in those who are fully vaccinated, it's important to increase those rates in our community, and just in general.
Dr. Williams:And I would I would like to add to that as well, even vaccinations are important, getting booster, but don't forget to always continue to wear your mask up, because that's also an important tool for decreasing the transmission of the virus because Omicron is so contagious.
Tony:As a follow up, I just want to ask, is the delta still around or is going away, and we only deal with Omicron now. What you're seeing?
Dr. Brown:Predominantly, we're definitely seeing mostly Omicron that has overtaken delta. And we know about viruses, we know that they mutate, we know that there are other variants that are out there. But predominantly, what we're seeing here in the US is Omicron.
Toni Henson:I have a black and white question, if someone does not get the virus. Say you have Sally gets the virus and Susan doesn't. What does Susan do to not get it versus what Sally did to get it?
Dr. Brown:And are you asking if she did not get it from her like they know each other? Or you just mean just in general precautions?
Toni Henson:Just in general. What does Susan do every day to protect herself because she did not get the virus.
Dr. Brown:She really is paying attention. She is doing everything that she can. She is vaccinated and boosted. She is wearing a high quality mask, not just any mask, any mask is going to be protective more than not having something on but the higher quality mask you can get the better. And it has to have both filtration and it has a good fit. She is staying away from others and certainly staying away from others who are unvaccinated because they're going to be at higher risk if they're certainly eligible. Then she's also making sure that she's washing her hands, she's paying attention to ventilation. She may be skipping indoor parties, even close outdoor eating. So we remember we are in a different phase of contagion. This is not delta, this is Omicron, it is extremely contagious. So the things that you did to not get Delta may not actually work for Omicron. So you really have to make sur,e just like Dr. Williams was just talking about, it's not one thing. One thing is not 100%. So the vaccine is not a cape, the mask is not a superhero cape. You have to do everything combined to really lower your risk. And certainly it's not a failure if you do all of this and you get it but certainly the more you do, the lower your risk is. And it definitely is a huge significance if you're doing all of those versus if you're doing one or two.
Toni Henson:If if a doctor told me that my child had a 1/100 chance of dying, and I could prevent it by taking them to the doctor or getting them vaccinated as much as I cannot and do not personally do not trust the medical system, that's something that I would do. That's the decision I would make to protect my child because I've just witnessed so many people dying and it just doesn't make sense. My best friend just buried her brother last week and I don't think I can take any more more deaths. I'm not even in the medical field so I know that my frustration is multiplied 1000 times. the two of you and I just want to thank you for your work.
Tony:We are where we are today. I'm boosted, I wear my mask and Toni and I we travel often, but we still have some fears of going out to eat having a family gathering. What can we do to protect ourselves and live some type of, I mean the bubble is tough, you got to get out of it. And as we travel some places require they take your temperature you have to to your vaccination card, but if you're going out to a restaurant or to a family gathering, you don't know what people been. So how do you got up against that. I mean, you're on the airplane and tell you to wear your mask. But if you're going to eat something, you can take it off. Taking it off in the airplane, are you still at risk for that small time?
Dr. Brown:Okay. Yes, yes, you definitely are, especially the folks who are closest to you and front, to your side, to your back, you definitely are still at risk. I certainly counsel folks to be really mindful of that and just make sure that you have something to eat and drink before you get on that plane, take your snack and your drink. And certainly if they give it to you, and it's has a cap on it, you can eat and drink it later. To be really careful when you're just in the airport, just in general. And then certainly for family gatherings, maybe you're going to be able to travel via car, and it also depends on who's coming, are they at higher risk. I think it depends and make sure that everybody can at least test, make sure those who are eligible and make sure that they're vaccinated. And then you can always social distance within or maybe you guys are going to still eat out, but get it to go, and then bring it home and eat it. So I think that you can modify what you're doing based on who's coming and who's most at risk - you need to protect. So if it's a two week old baby, I'm gonna say they just should not come at this time because the risk is too high. Or if you have somebody who's immunosuppressed, the risk is too high. So talk to your doctor and don't feel like you have to make these decisions on your own. Because I personally don't believe in cookie cutter recommendations, there's not one recommendation that's going to work for everyone. So really talk to your provider about what you guys are doing so that you can make it as safe as you can.
Dr. Williams:I agree with what Dr. Brown said, 100%. I think you know, a lot of us have the pandemic fatigue, we're kind of burned out with the guidelines. We want to I mean, we are a relational people and especially here in Louisiana, that's our culture, that's our flavor. We hug, we kiss we greet friends, this is just who we are here. So the impact of COVID on the culture of this city has been drastic, but I think we all have to continue to be vigilant and resilient. And we have to have open conversations with our friends and families. And I'm finding now people are respectful of your wishes, even more than before, because people understand that we all have to take care of what's most important to us. And that's our health and our families. And so I think just having a conversation, when you're having a family gathering and making sure that you can socially distance, or you don't have someone at risk, and everyone is vaccinated, tests before the event, all of those things, but isn't as not as it was before. And I don't know when we're gonna go back to as it was before, but we have to make the best of what it is now, and try to mitigate. So we can have some sense of normalcy or some sense of family and community. So I think we just have to do it on an individual basis. And hopefully people will respect your wishes. And if you can't come to that family gathering because my cousin John will be there, he's not vaccinated. I don't know what's going on with him. I don't know. Well, I just can't come, I want to be there but I can't be there.
Toni Henson:Thank you for giving us permission because a lot of people what they do is they hear it, or they think it but then they don't want to push forward. So what you just said Dr. Williams, give them permission and the encouragement to say, No, I'm going to protect myself. I'm going to stay home and not go.
Dr. Brown:Absolutely, I give my patients full permission to always also use me, I'm gonna say you can say Dr. Brown said.
Toni Henson:Yeah
Tony:This has been a great discussion we have come- two and a half years going on three years with this. I remember when it first came out, we used to wipe down everything, everything that came in the house, the groceries, wipe everything down before we put it away. We don't do that anymore. But I'm hearing you say Omicron is very contagious. So how contagious is it? And should we be concerned about touching things or not wiping things down? And what is the proper distance someone should be away from each other to protect ourselves? Is it six feet, four feet, arm's length?
Dr. Williams:Omicron is so contagious. I know that people have stopped wiping everything down, we get a little lax. I would recommend that you do. I mean, I would recommend that you continue to be vigilant, not let your guard down. Six feet is what the guidelines say. I don't know. Dr. Brown, do you have any
Dr. Brown:Yeah, definitely, I think especially when you think thing? about kids. So any variant can be passed, if it's wet to wet. So think about kids, they put everything in their mouth at a certain age especially those younger kids. They touch everything, they put it right in their mouth, somebody comes behind them, it's still wet, and they introduce it there, they can get it or their eyes, their nose, their mouth, or mucosa. This is how we get it or it's those little droplets that stay in the air, and it can hang out there for quite a long time. So even if your space six feet apart, if there is no mask on, or a mask that doesn't have good filtration or fit those particles are in the air. I also think that, we do know that if the surface is not wet, and someone didn't come right after, then that's significantly less risk. So definitely wash your hands but also be careful with what you're using, because we've also seen a spike in terms of poisoning of kids at home, because they're getting into cleaners. So make sure that if you do have cleaners out, and you're using them to make sure that you lock them up securely, so that kids can't get into them. So certainly, if you have access to soap and water that is best, and if not, certainly hand sanitizer, but I think the main things that you that you need to do is that distance, the masking, the vaccination and the ventilation all combined.
Tony:What's the risk you get by wearing a mask too long? Is there a risk to that if you have it on for too long and when you should take it off to get a breath of fresh air. How do you manage that.
Dr. Brown:So it depends on the mask that you're wearing, right. So most high quality masks are going to be able to give you an actual test of breathability. So they make sure that you can actually breathe through the mask. I wear my mask for probably 12 hours in a day sometimes. And I don't have to change the mask out but I use a single use disposable high filtering mask, right that's made of polypropylene to make sure that those particles can't come through and over 99% are going to stay out and I make sure that it's fit really nice and tight to my face. Any mask that you're using should not affect your oxygenation, it's not dangerous to wear it for that long. Oftentimes, especially with kids who are not used to wearing it. Initially, they can just be anxious, having something on their face and feeling that air coming in and out differently. And you teach them to relax, and you gradually get them to tolerate it for maybe it's the course of the school day or those kinds of things. And then if they need to take a break, you want to do that outside, so let them have a mask break outside, spaced out. So I think too, you have to put in their their developmental ability, when you're talking about introducing mask and doing this way ahead of them going back to school if you have kids who aren't in school yet. And certainly if you have kids who were under their nose, off their ear, under their chin, that is not actually protecting either side of that mask. So making sure to that you're modeling for your family and your children to correctly and consistently wear your mask. But if you have a cloth mask that would need to be washed every day and there are new guidelines that those companies should tell you how many washes before it can't be used anymore. Same with masks, they should be able to tell you how long it can be used before you need to replace it. And certainly anytime it gets soiled, you need to dispose of it and get a new mask.
Dr. Williams:And also children under two are not required to wear a mask. They can really tell you if they're having any difficulties or anything of that source.
Toni Henson:Great, great point. All right, so we got this last ditch plea to the person who's on the fence because I don't think we're convincing those who said I'm not getting vaccinated. What's the last ditch plea, Dr. Williams you start?
Dr. Williams:Well, the person who's on the fence, I think it depends is why they're on the fence. I think, everybody is on the fence for different reasons. So it's not a one size fits all type of answer. However, my pitch is something I said earlier, this is a public health issue. And in order for us to get past that, I mean, we've been given vaccines for decades. This is no different from other vaccines that we've given other than the way in which it's formulated, it's the mRNA vaccine. But we've been studying that for decades. So my pitch will be vaccines are safe, the COVID vaccine is safe. It's been studied, millions of people have received the vaccine without any issues. And in order for us to get past COVID-19, this pandemic, we have to increase the vaccination rates in order for us to I mean, there are a lot of people who have passed away, literally in my family and my circle, in my community from COVID, who would have still been here today. We didn't even have the vaccine back then and so we are a community and we all have to work together to get past COVID-19. And to get it under control. So my my pitch would be, let's do this together, because we are a people of community.
Dr. Brown:100% Dr. Williams, I would say, along those same lines, this is how we get back to normal. You want to get back to folks saying that you don't necessarily always have to wear a mask. This is the way to do it. Vaccines save lives. This is how you get to just mild or no symptoms at all. Less long haul, less ICU, less loss of life. So you're not only protecting yourself, you're also protecting your community. And we are relying on you. It's all together, our risk is combined together. And certainly the statistics don't mean a lot to our families who are standing beside a graveside or standing beside somebody who's in the hospital or in the ICU bed. And so we certainly don't want you to be at a point that you say I wish I had. So get the information that you need. And trust us to give you information about what we know and what we don't know. And please come in and ask us.
Toni Henson:That's Black Family Table Talk.
Tony:That's what's up
Toni Henson:With the vaccine, families can protect themselves against COVID. And we can get back to what we love most - living life. To find a vaccine near you, visit vaccines.gov that's vaccines (dot) G-O-V. This episode is sponsored by the US Department of Health and Human Services. Together, we can do this.
Tony:That concludes this week's talk. We hope you found some tools to add to your strong black family toolbox. And be sure to sign up for a free subscription at BlackFamilyTableTalk.com for special discounts and product offers reserved exclusively for you.
Toni X:Don't forget to tell a friend about our weekly podcast and blog. Available on Apple pod Google, Pandora, Spotify and everywhere podcasts are heard.
Toni Henson:Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976. allowance is made for fair use for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship and research. fair use is a use permitted by a copyright statute that may otherwise be infringing. The news and opinions expressed on black family tabletop do not necessarily reflect various platform hosts. All topics are for entertainment purposes only discretion to strongly advise and all commentary is alleged This is a Micah six eight media LLC production.